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Relly
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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:29 pm

Carrick 5 Gerrard 0 wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:47 am
Short Back and Sides wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:20 am
Any terror attacks are terrible but this is showing now we need to do something to combat this. Two attacks in such short spaces of time. We cannot tolerate this any longer.
But the question is what do we do? This happens and people say the Muslim community should report these guys, but if you look at the Manchester terrorist, the community reported him a number of times over the last few years so what is it that we can change? That's a difficult one for whoever will be PM on Thursday. We need to give police the funding to investigate these people that are being reported as they don't have the resources to cope with that.
You don't get more police to deal with a problem, you eliminate the cause of the problem before it gets to that point.

At this point it seems nothing short of Geert Wilders vision will work.


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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:40 pm

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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:16 pm

Dante wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:14 pm
Presumebly you mean Ian Payne, who is a former Chief Inspector of the Met.

He's right. There are less officers, and May was repeatedly warned as Home Secretary that this put the public at risk, which she ignored. Services are stretched very thin, well past breaking point.

It's all very well saying that the job of the police is changing, but if there aren't enough bodies to do that job, there are going to be problems. Would more numbers have stopped this attack? We'll never know, though I think it unlikely. Without the resources and manpower though, it's always going to be a losing battle.
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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:51 pm

Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:40 pm
Ahaha, he's fornicate insane. The internment he's referring to, Operation Demetrius is generally regarded to be a complete and utter failure because it resulted in the detention of people who had no links at all to the IRA, and this combined with the inhumane treatment of those detained actually increased tensions in Northern Ireland, gave massive upswing in recruitment for nationalists, and caused a huge increase in violence.

Basically, he's inadvertently highlighted why it's an absolutely awful idea that will end up with the exact opposite result that he's claiming to want to achieve. He could have found this out with a 5 minute chat to anyone from Ireland in that period, either side of the border.
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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:13 pm

Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:29 pm
You don't get more police to deal with a problem, you eliminate the cause of the problem before it gets to that point.

At this point it seems nothing short of Geert Wilders vision will work.
At least one of them is believed to be a British man of Pakistani descent, of which there are over a million in the UK. Generally, British Pakistanis' feel a stronger sense of British identity than white people, who are more likely to feel the identity of the individual nations. But yeah, cos of this, lets get rid of all British Pakistanis'.

That's the Mayor of London, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Culture, several members of the England cricket team, an Olympic silver medalist boxer and one quarter of One Direction gone for a start.
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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:50 pm

Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:22 pm
marcus leong wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:36 am
ivandaman wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:40 am
And the cultural enrichment continues in full swing.

Watch them saying that this "incident/s" has nothing to do with Islam.
Thanks your president for arming them too.
Ivan has a Prime Minister. But I assume you were mistaking him for American? In which case you are right , Obama did fund, arm and train ISIS.
Wow. I'm really speechless.
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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:16 pm

Dante wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:13 pm
Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:29 pm
You don't get more police to deal with a problem, you eliminate the cause of the problem before it gets to that point.

At this point it seems nothing short of Geert Wilders vision will work.
At least one of them is believed to be a British man of Pakistani descent, of which there are over a million in the UK. Generally, British Pakistanis' feel a stronger sense of British identity than white people, who are more likely to feel the identity of the individual nations. But yeah, cos of this, lets get rid of all British Pakistanis'.

That's the Mayor of London, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Culture, several members of the England cricket team, an Olympic silver medalist boxer and one quarter of One Direction gone for a start.
Ban the koran, ban mosques and British born Pakistanis won't become radicalized.

Kahn is a fornicate halfdeck and his nonchalance about terrorism makes him partially responsible for what happened.
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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:20 pm

marcus leong wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:50 pm
Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:22 pm
marcus leong wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:36 am


Thanks your president for arming them too.
Ivan has a Prime Minister. But I assume you were mistaking him for American? In which case you are right , Obama did fund, arm and train ISIS.
Wow. I'm really speechless.
It is shocking


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Re: Terrorism

Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:56 pm

Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:20 pm
marcus leong wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:50 pm
Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:22 pm


Ivan has a Prime Minister. But I assume you were mistaking him for American? In which case you are right , Obama did fund, arm and train ISIS.
Wow. I'm really speechless.
It is shocking


I guess DJT is following his legacy then.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:43 am

It's not possible to ban the Qur'an, or mosques. It's also a great way to do ISIS' recruiting for them.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:41 am

Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:16 pm
Dante wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:13 pm
Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:29 pm
You don't get more police to deal with a problem, you eliminate the cause of the problem before it gets to that point.

At this point it seems nothing short of Geert Wilders vision will work.
At least one of them is believed to be a British man of Pakistani descent, of which there are over a million in the UK. Generally, British Pakistanis' feel a stronger sense of British identity than white people, who are more likely to feel the identity of the individual nations. But yeah, cos of this, lets get rid of all British Pakistanis'.

That's the Mayor of London, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Culture, several members of the England cricket team, an Olympic silver medalist boxer and one quarter of One Direction gone for a start.
Ban the koran, ban mosques and British born Pakistanis won't become radicalized.

Kahn is a fornicate halfdeck and his nonchalance about terrorism makes him partially responsible for what happened.
Ban the Koran and mosques and youre pretty much making the situation even worse
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:47 am

@Sandies

Oh Yeah, because the way it's going right now it's going to get much better.. Appeasing doesn't work.. Islamist see our tolerance and pathetic attempts to appease them as a weakness.
And they are absolutely right.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:36 pm

Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:16 pm

Ban the koran, ban mosques and British born Pakistanis won't become radicalized.

Kahn is a fornicate halfdeck and his nonchalance about terrorism makes him partially responsible for what happened.
His nonchalence about terrorism? I assume you mean Trumps tweet taking the Mayor reassuring people about an increased police presence in the capital completely out of context for political points scoring?

If you actually think that banning the Koran and mosques would prevent, rather than massively increasing radicalisation among British Pakistani's I don't know what to say to you.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:37 pm

ivandaman wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:47 am
@Sandies

Oh Yeah, because the way it's going right now it's going to get much better.. Appeasing doesn't work.. Islamist see our tolerance and pathetic attempts to appease them as a weakness.
And they are absolutely right.
How do you propose we ban the Qur'an then? Keeping in mind anyone can access it online (www.quran.com) and millions of people have one in their homes. Do we go round knocking on doors asking for people to hand their copies of the Qur'an over for the newer version? This is the problem you have with reformation as well, people will always know what was in the Qur'an before it was reformed. It's just not possible.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:53 pm

Why stop with the Quran? There are many books in the Bible that deal with murder of relatives, incest and mass killings of entire races of people. Many serial killers have used passages from the Bible to justify (at least to themselves) their action, isn’t that grounds for at the least removing those passages. Why stop at the Quran and the Bible maybe the Torah (or the Tanakh) will have a few passages that some might use as an excuse for creating mayhem, let’s get rid of those as well.

How about other books, Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Lord of the Ring or even the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and especially that pesky 1984 – where are the thought police when you need them. Instead of banning or modifying books to meet the taste of the “majority” maybe we should make a big pile of them and have bonfire, it’s been tried in the past but it might work this time. Banning books (or for that matter, anything) will only increase its value and will not act as a deterrent, but rather as an incentive to some. To stop terrorism we must first understand why someone allows themselves to becomes radicalized and attack the underlying reason behind it otherwise we will always be playing catch up and no one has the resources to do that effectively.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:46 pm

Dante wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:36 pm
Relly wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:16 pm

Ban the koran, ban mosques and British born Pakistanis won't become radicalized.

Kahn is a fornicate halfdeck and his nonchalance about terrorism makes him partially responsible for what happened.
His nonchalence about terrorism? I assume you mean Trumps tweet taking the Mayor reassuring people about an increased police presence in the capital completely out of context for political points scoring?

If you actually think that banning the Koran and mosques would prevent, rather than massively increasing radicalisation among British Pakistani's I don't know what to say to you.
No I mean instead of naming the problem and dealing with it he tells people they have to learn to live with it.


I love how people will defend Muslims as peacefull, fully integrated citizens but are so quick to say, no you can't do that because it will upset the Muslims and they'll start killing people.
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Re: Terrorism

Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:54 pm

ArizonaRed wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:53 pm
Why stop with the Quran? There are many books in the Bible that deal with murder of relatives, incest and mass killings of entire races of people. Many serial killers have used passages from the Bible to justify (at least to themselves) their action, isn’t that grounds for at the least removing those passages. Why stop at the Quran and the Bible maybe the Torah (or the Tanakh) will have a few passages that some might use as an excuse for creating mayhem, let’s get rid of those as well.

How about other books, Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Lord of the Ring or even the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and especially that pesky 1984 – where are the thought police when you need them. Instead of banning or modifying books to meet the taste of the “majority” maybe we should make a big pile of them and have bonfire, it’s been tried in the past but it might work this time. Banning books (or for that matter, anything) will only increase its value and will not act as a deterrent, but rather as an incentive to some. To stop terrorism we must first understand why someone allows themselves to becomes radicalized and attack the underlying reason behind it otherwise we will always be playing catch up and no one has the resources to do that effectively.

Well none of those other books are inspiring people to slaughter innocent people on a daily basis.

And personally I am an atheist, but Christianity went through a renaissance hundreds of years ago and cleaned up its act. And let's be honest, most of the successful countries in the world are built on Christian values.
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:32 am

Relly wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:46 pm
I love how people will defend Muslims as peacefull, fully integrated citizens but are so quick to say, no you can't do that because it will upset the Muslims and they'll start killing people.
There is some truth to this. People often make equivalences with Christianity but just look at the differing reactions to depictions of Muhammad to say, Jesus.

I was going to post this earlier but I'll leave it here now, it's a talk by an Egyptian doctor called Tawfik Hamed. He is an ex Jihadist and describes the change in the Middle East over the past 70 years and why he thinks it went from being relatively peaceful to the situation we see now. He also breaks down the phenomenon of extremism (or whatever you want to call it), on a nation level and then in the mind of the individual. He debunks a lot of the oft repeated arguments, for example when people say extremism can't have anything to do with Islam because the majority of Muslims are peaceful (he uses an analogy of smoking; it's a scientific fact that most cases of lung cancer are caused by smoking, yet most smokers don't develop lung cancer, the latter statement does not contradict the former, even though most smokers will not get the disease we know that smoking causes it) and also the role of Western foreign policy and the Israel/Palestine thing.

Also makes some interesting hypotheses himself re: sexual repression and the correlation between peak testosterone levels and the age of suicide bombers.

If you have a couple of hours to spare and an open mind I'd recommend listening to him, it's really interesting and you'll gain far more from it than debating on here.



If anyone listens to it let me know what you think.
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:10 am

Something interesting I came across today..

No wonder Europe is being destroyed. Are those even real people??
One noteworthy reality about Europe's current political leadership is summarised here:

• Macron, the newly elected French president,has no children.
• German chancellor Angela Merkel has no children.
• British prime minister Theresa May has no children.
• Italian prime minister Paolo Gentiloni has no children.
• Holland's Mark Rutte,
• Sweden's Stefan Löfven,
• Luxembourg's Xavier Bettel,
• Scotland's Nicola Sturgeon — all have no children.
• Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, has no children.

So a grossly disproportionate number of the people making decisions about Europe's future have no direct personal stake in that future.
Unfreakingbelievable
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:50 am

Martin wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:32 am
Relly wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:46 pm
I love how people will defend Muslims as peacefull, fully integrated citizens but are so quick to say, no you can't do that because it will upset the Muslims and they'll start killing people.
There is some truth to this. People often make equivalences with Christianity but just look at the differing reactions to depictions of Muhammad to say, Jesus.

I was going to post this earlier but I'll leave it here now, it's a talk by an Egyptian doctor called Tawfik Hamed. He is an ex Jihadist and describes the change in the Middle East over the past 70 years and why he thinks it went from being relatively peaceful to the situation we see now. He also breaks down the phenomenon of extremism (or whatever you want to call it), on a nation level and then in the mind of the individual. He debunks a lot of the oft repeated arguments, for example when people say extremism can't have anything to do with Islam because the majority of Muslims are peaceful (he uses an analogy of smoking; it's a scientific fact that most cases of lung cancer are caused by smoking, yet most smokers don't develop lung cancer, the latter statement does not contradict the former, even though most smokers will not get the disease we know that smoking causes it) and also the role of Western foreign policy and the Israel/Palestine thing.

Also makes some interesting hypotheses himself re: sexual repression and the correlation between peak testosterone levels and the age of suicide bombers.

If you have a couple of hours to spare and an open mind I'd recommend listening to him, it's really interesting and you'll gain far more from it than debating on here.



If anyone listens to it let me know what you think.
I'm 30 minutes in, it's a very good speech on understanding this issue. Will share more once I finished.

Ivan, you should listen too.
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:30 am

Marcus . Yes I will. I've heard quite a few of those but anothet point of view is always useful.
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:40 am

ivandaman wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:10 am
Something interesting I came across today..

No wonder Europe is being destroyed. Are those even real people??
One noteworthy reality about Europe's current political leadership is summarised here:

• Macron, the newly elected French president,has no children.
• German chancellor Angela Merkel has no children.
• British prime minister Theresa May has no children.
• Italian prime minister Paolo Gentiloni has no children.
• Holland's Mark Rutte,
• Sweden's Stefan Löfven,
• Luxembourg's Xavier Bettel,
• Scotland's Nicola Sturgeon — all have no children.
• Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, has no children.

So a grossly disproportionate number of the people making decisions about Europe's future have no direct personal stake in that future.
Unfreakingbelievable
I fail to see why this is remotely an issue. There are plenty of things that render Theresa May unfit for office - her not having children is certainly not one of them.

I don't have children. I don't intend to ever have children. That doesn't mean I'm not hugely concerned about the future.
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:13 pm

Relly wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:54 pm
ArizonaRed wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:53 pm
Why stop with the Quran? There are many books in the Bible that deal with murder of relatives, incest and mass killings of entire races of people. Many serial killers have used passages from the Bible to justify (at least to themselves) their action, isn’t that grounds for at the least removing those passages. Why stop at the Quran and the Bible maybe the Torah (or the Tanakh) will have a few passages that some might use as an excuse for creating mayhem, let’s get rid of those as well.

How about other books, Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, Lord of the Ring or even the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and especially that pesky 1984 – where are the thought police when you need them. Instead of banning or modifying books to meet the taste of the “majority” maybe we should make a big pile of them and have bonfire, it’s been tried in the past but it might work this time. Banning books (or for that matter, anything) will only increase its value and will not act as a deterrent, but rather as an incentive to some. To stop terrorism we must first understand why someone allows themselves to becomes radicalized and attack the underlying reason behind it otherwise we will always be playing catch up and no one has the resources to do that effectively.

Well none of those other books are inspiring people to slaughter innocent people on a daily basis.

And personally I am an atheist, but Christianity went through a renaissance hundreds of years ago and cleaned up its act. And let's be honest, most of the successful countries in the world are built on Christian values.
Well none of those other books are inspiring people to slaughter innocent people on a daily basis. 

I am not sure what yardstick you are using or the timeframe involved to judge success, or for that matter what even constitutes success, but I would argue that; China, Japan, India and a host of countries in the Middle East have all built successful countries. Over the centuries hundreds of thousands have been slaughtered in the name of Christianity and other religions. While the Church(es) have tried to wash the blood from its hands and attempted to make amends; car bombs where still exploding in late 1990 around England in the name of a Religious War. Even today in the US churches and clinics are fire bombed and people murdered because some nut job reads a passage from the Bible (or another book) that they believe is telling them that their God needs for them to protect or avenge someone or something.

I cannot think of any book that would inspire a normal thinking individual into killing anyone. Everyday millions of people read and follow the Bible or the Quran or the Torah or the Tibetan Book or the Dead and are better people because of it. Unfortunately other people read the exact same passages and determine that their god need them to cleanse the world. Those that would wage a war of terror need to be found out and eliminated, terrorism needs to be Fought on every level possible using every tool available and some methods that yet to be thought of.

However waging war on millions of people just because they choose one set of beliefs over another makes no more sense that waging war on people based on the color of their skin or the clothes they wear or their hair style. We do not kill the patient because they have a tumor instead we remove the cancer.
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Re: Terrorism

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:16 pm

Dante wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:40 am
Dante Wrote:

I fail to see why this is remotely an issue. There are plenty of things that render Theresa May unfit for office - her not having children is certainly not one of them.

I don't have children. I don't intend to ever have children. That doesn't mean I'm not hugely concerned about the future.
That appears to be your biggest problem Dante. You fail to see way too many obvious things and unfortunately there isn't much I or anyone else can do.. Some things you'd have to figure them out on your own. With time and life experience. Anyone who has kids will tell you that as soon as you become a parent your outlook on life changes drastically and you start seeing and noticing things you didn't know existed before. Also you start to worry about things you considered trivial in the past. The fact that the most important politicians on the continent are no parents themselves may have something to do with their disastrous self-destructing and idiotic policies.
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Re: Terrorism

Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:23 am

ivandaman wrote:
Dante wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:40 am
Dante Wrote:

I fail to see why this is remotely an issue. There are plenty of things that render Theresa May unfit for office - her not having children is certainly not one of them.

I don't have children. I don't intend to ever have children. That doesn't mean I'm not hugely concerned about the future.
That appears to be your biggest problem Dante. You fail to see way too many obvious things and unfortunately there isn't much I or anyone else can do.. Some things you'd have to figure them out on your own. With time and life experience. Anyone who has kids will tell you that as soon as you become a parent your outlook on life changes drastically and you start seeing and noticing things you didn't know existed before. Also you start to worry about things you considered trivial in the past. The fact that the most important politicians on the continent are no parents themselves may have something to do with their disastrous self-destructing and idiotic policies.
Well said Ivan. Couldn't agree more.
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