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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:00 am

RedSte wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:48 pm
To try to take the use of the word "gun" or "arms" out of the equation (as they're such emotive terms to so-called 2nd Amendment fans), how about we try looking at the underlying pure logic of both sides of the argument by using this scenario....?

Johnny has been going round the school playground hitting other schoolkids with a big stick. What's the best solution for this?

(a) Give everyone a big stick
(b) Give some specially selected big kids big sticks
(c) Take the sticks away

The NBSA (national big stick association) would presumably vote (a)
Trump seems to like (b)
90% of the world would wonder why there's even a debate about the concept of the authorities going around handing out sticks to schoolkids and obviously vote (c)

Now all you have to do is replace the word "stick" with "gun" and Hey Presto! :)

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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:23 am

Hey it worked with Nukes....Lol.

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FIRE CHIEF: RED YOU SAY? WHY DON'T WE SET UP SOME PROPANE AND GET SOME BLUE FLAME IN IT'S PATH.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:13 pm

I'm not one hundred percent where I stand on gun control but this giving teachers guns thing is ridiculous. You're just going to create a myriad of other problems.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:17 pm

RedSte wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:48 pm
To try to take the use of the word "gun" or "arms" out of the equation (as they're such emotive terms to so-called 2nd Amendment fans), how about we try looking at the underlying pure logic of both sides of the argument by using this scenario....?

Johnny has been going round the school playground hitting other schoolkids with a big stick. What's the best solution for this?

(a) Give everyone a big stick
(b) Give some specially selected big kids big sticks
(c) Take the sticks away

The NBSA (national big stick association) would presumably vote (a)
Trump seems to like (b)
90% of the world would wonder why there's even a debate about the concept of the authorities going around handing out sticks to schoolkids and obviously vote (c)

Now all you have to do is replace the word "stick" with "gun" and Hey Presto! :)
Having a big stick isn't a right in the USA, having a gun is. 100 000 000 people have over 300 000 000 guns, go start rounding them up and see how that goes for you.

So do you agree that Trump has taken the most logical stance? Even Obama, with the most power possible, never attempting to take away gun rights. Option C will destroy the country, therefore B, giving guns to a small amount of teachers who have received specialty training seems the most logical solution.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:23 pm

Mushy peas wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:13 pm
I'm not one hundred percent where I stand on gun control but this giving teachers guns thing is ridiculous. You're just going to create a myriad of other problems.
So what's the solution? And I don't mean to pick on you Christie because you don't seem beholden to any political ideology, but everyone here, Brent, Steve, Redbution, etc seem to shit on every idea mentioned, but none have offered up any real sort of solution of there own. What is the common sense approach to dealing with mass shootings in the US?


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:30 pm

You're presenting a false dichotomy there mate. Just because no one has thought of a good solution doesn't mean yours is decent. The idea of arming teachers is, to me, preposterous.

I personally don't think there are any easy solutions. But for me the status quo is better than arming teachers. While school shootings are incredibly tragic they are on the whole quite rare. Arming teachers would be a whole waste of money and would cause a ton of other problems.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 pm

In 1966 a slag heap collapsed on a mining village in South Wales, 5 teachers and 109 children were killed, it practically wiped out a generation, it was one of seven tips above the town, after a lengthy fight, all the tips were stabilised and their heights reduced to 'safe' proportions.
Thirty years later in 1996 a man walked into Dunblane school and killed 16 pupils and one teacher. Within a year the private ownership of automatic and semi automatic weapons was banned in the UK.

How many instances on a school shooting is it going to take the people of the USA to realise thatit is the easy acquisition of firearms that is the problem.

The upholding of a clause in an archaic constitution that was written over three hundred years ago, is not worth the life of a single child.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:58 pm

Mushy peas wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:30 pm
You're presenting a false dichotomy there mate. Just because no one has thought of a good solution doesn't mean yours is decent. The idea of arming teachers is, to me, preposterous.

I personally don't think there are any easy solutions. But for me the status quo is better than arming teachers. While school shootings are incredibly tragic they are on the whole quite rare. Arming teachers would be a whole waste of money and would cause a ton of other problems.
I don't have a solution, therefore I have never said mine is the answer. I don't think anyone has a solution, hence the situation. How can anyone predict the thoughts and actions of every person to prevent every crime from being performed? But as gun ownership has risen in the US violent crime has gone down. 98% of all mass shootings occur in gun free zones. He isn't saying arm all the teachers, he is saying arm 20% of the faculty, people who know how to use guns, whether they are teachers or coaches or principals, etc. In a country where over a third of people have guns and know how to use them finding 20% of the staff who can do this shouldn't be that difficult.

Can you honestly tell me that if little Johnny was thinking about going into a school to shoot it up that he wouldn't think twice about it if he thought he could walk through the door and the football coach would be standing in front of him with a gun on side? It's not an ideal solution, and frankly more of a bandaid to the real issues, mental health, psychotropic drug use, glorification of violent culture, but if you want something to have an immediate effect this is your only answer.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:00 pm

Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 pm
In 1966 a slag heap collapsed on a mining village in South Wales, 5 teachers and 109 children were killed, it practically wiped out a generation, it was one of seven tips above the town, after a lengthy fight, all the tips were stabilised and their heights reduced to 'safe' proportions.
Thirty years later in 1996 a man walked into Dunblane school and killed 16 pupils and one teacher. Within a year the private ownership of automatic and semi automatic weapons was banned in the UK.

How many instances on a school shooting is it going to take the people of the USA to realise thatit is the easy acquisition of firearms that is the problem.

The upholding of a clause in an archaic constitution that was written over three hundred years ago, is not worth the life of a single child.
The US is not the UK. Banning guns is not an option, even Obama knew that. You people that don't understand the US really need to stop wasting your energy even suggesting it.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:06 pm

Relly wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:00 pm
Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 pm
In 1966 a slag heap collapsed on a mining village in South Wales, 5 teachers and 109 children were killed, it practically wiped out a generation, it was one of seven tips above the town, after a lengthy fight, all the tips were stabilised and their heights reduced to 'safe' proportions.
Thirty years later in 1996 a man walked into Dunblane school and killed 16 pupils and one teacher. Within a year the private ownership of automatic and semi automatic weapons was banned in the UK.

How many instances on a school shooting is it going to take the people of the USA to realise thatit is the easy acquisition of firearms that is the problem.

The upholding of a clause in an archaic constitution that was written over three hundred years ago, is not worth the life of a single child.
The US is not the UK. Banning guns is not an option, even Obama knew that. You people that don't understand the US really need to stop wasting your energy even suggesting it.
Oh I think we understand the US a lot better than you give us credit for.
One thing we Brits have learned from this is that the citizens of the US, and the President of the US value a persons right to buy a gun without any controls, over the life of a child.
I feel sorry for people with that mentality.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm

Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:06 pm
Relly wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:00 pm
Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 pm
In 1966 a slag heap collapsed on a mining village in South Wales, 5 teachers and 109 children were killed, it practically wiped out a generation, it was one of seven tips above the town, after a lengthy fight, all the tips were stabilised and their heights reduced to 'safe' proportions.
Thirty years later in 1996 a man walked into Dunblane school and killed 16 pupils and one teacher. Within a year the private ownership of automatic and semi automatic weapons was banned in the UK.

How many instances on a school shooting is it going to take the people of the USA to realise thatit is the easy acquisition of firearms that is the problem.

The upholding of a clause in an archaic constitution that was written over three hundred years ago, is not worth the life of a single child.
The US is not the UK. Banning guns is not an option, even Obama knew that. You people that don't understand the US really need to stop wasting your energy even suggesting it.
Oh I think we understand the US a lot better than you give us credit for.
One thing we Brits have learned from this is that the citizens of the US, and the President of the US value a persons right to buy a gun without any controls, over the life of a child.
I feel sorry for people with that mentality.

**Edit**
Please present a valid argument for not banning the sale of auto and semi automatic weapons and their ammunition, without stricter controls and licensing across the whole of the US.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 pm

Some citizens sir. Other than that, I think you make a common sense attempt at solving the problem.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:25 pm

RED3bution wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 pm
Some citizens sir. Other than that, I think you make a common sense attempt at solving the problem.
I can't see the problem, it's pure administration, you pass law, it states the amount and type of ammunition a person can buy, where he can buy it from ( a responsible source), at the forst attempt to buy ammunition, the person has to register his gun, it's engraved on the butt with the licence number and zip code, this creates a paper trail on that weapon.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:49 pm

Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:25 pm
RED3bution wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 pm
Some citizens sir. Other than that, I think you make a common sense attempt at solving the problem.
I can't see the problem, it's pure administration, you pass law, it states the amount and type of ammunition a person can buy, where he can buy it from ( a responsible source), at the forst attempt to buy ammunition, the person has to register his gun, it's engraved on the butt with the licence number and zip code, this creates a paper trail on that weapon.
This is similar to how Canada works, for the most part. An AR-15 would fall into all the stipulations you just made, however I could buy a bigger, more powerful rifle, with the same capacity as an AR and put it in my basement and no one would ever know. The AR isn't really anything special, it's just cool looking.

But these rules wouldn't work in the US because it would violate the entire point of the second amendment. In Canada you can't own a gun for self defense, it's for sport or hunting or no other option. You say self defense on your application and you won't get a license. But the entire point of the second amendment is to protect yourself from a tyrannical government, and if you instituted a policy where the government knows exactly what you have and where it is at all times, thus can come and collect it any time they want, would defeat the whole point of the 2A.

And what you're still not getting, and even Obama wasn't this dumb, is that you try and pass these laws, good luck going down to Texas and trying to enforce them. If you don't understand this then you are reiterating my point that most of the people in here really have very little understanding of the US and this issue.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:25 pm

Relly wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:49 pm
Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:25 pm
RED3bution wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 pm
Some citizens sir. Other than that, I think you make a common sense attempt at solving the problem.
I can't see the problem, it's pure administration, you pass law, it states the amount and type of ammunition a person can buy, where he can buy it from ( a responsible source), at the forst attempt to buy ammunition, the person has to register his gun, it's engraved on the butt with the licence number and zip code, this creates a paper trail on that weapon.
This is similar to how Canada works, for the most part. An AR-15 would fall into all the stipulations you just made, however I could buy a bigger, more powerful rifle, with the same capacity as an AR and put it in my basement and no one would ever know. The AR isn't really anything special, it's just cool looking.

But these rules wouldn't work in the US because it would violate the entire point of the second amendment. In Canada you can't own a gun for self defense, it's for sport or hunting or no other option. You say self defense on your application and you won't get a license. But the entire point of the second amendment is to protect yourself from a tyrannical government, and if you instituted a policy where the government knows exactly what you have and where it is at all times, thus can come and collect it any time they want, would defeat the whole point of the 2A.

And what you're still not getting, and even Obama wasn't this dumb, is that you try and pass these laws, good luck going down to Texas and trying to enforce them. If you don't understand this then you are reiterating my point that most of the people in here really have very little understanding of the US and this issue.
It is not the constitution that is the problem, it is its treatment as if it's some commandment. The language and some would say spirit of the2nd amendment reflected the absence of a professional army in the US and encouraged a vigilance against first and foremost Brittain and it's influence in the government of the US.
I think RedSte already touched on this but you do yourself a disservice if you do not factor historical context into your reading.


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Re: Terrorism

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:19 pm

RED3bution wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:25 pm
Relly wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:49 pm
Sigmar wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:25 pm


I can't see the problem, it's pure administration, you pass law, it states the amount and type of ammunition a person can buy, where he can buy it from ( a responsible source), at the forst attempt to buy ammunition, the person has to register his gun, it's engraved on the butt with the licence number and zip code, this creates a paper trail on that weapon.
This is similar to how Canada works, for the most part. An AR-15 would fall into all the stipulations you just made, however I could buy a bigger, more powerful rifle, with the same capacity as an AR and put it in my basement and no one would ever know. The AR isn't really anything special, it's just cool looking.

But these rules wouldn't work in the US because it would violate the entire point of the second amendment. In Canada you can't own a gun for self defense, it's for sport or hunting or no other option. You say self defense on your application and you won't get a license. But the entire point of the second amendment is to protect yourself from a tyrannical government, and if you instituted a policy where the government knows exactly what you have and where it is at all times, thus can come and collect it any time they want, would defeat the whole point of the 2A.

And what you're still not getting, and even Obama wasn't this dumb, is that you try and pass these laws, good luck going down to Texas and trying to enforce them. If you don't understand this then you are reiterating my point that most of the people in here really have very little understanding of the US and this issue.
It is not the constitution that is the problem, it is its treatment as if it's some commandment. The language and some would say spirit of the2nd amendment reflected the absence of a professional army in the US and encouraged a vigilance against first and foremost Brittain and it's influence in the government of the US.
I think RedSte already touched on this but you do yourself a disservice if you do not factor historical context into your reading.
Saying this proves you are living in the past, does the Us not now have a national military ? does it not now have a national guard ?
Surely this makes the 2nd amendment redundant and outdated.

I ask you both once again, do you think that upholding what is written on a 300yr old piece of parchment is more improtant than a childs life in todays modern civilised world ?

We have the Magan Carta, sign in 1215 by Knig John, and it is the basis of our modern rights and laws, but we have move on since the 13th century and even the 17th century when men roamed England with flintlock pistols, because I doubt if the men who originally wrote the 2nd amendment even dreamed of a rifle capable of firing 60 rounds a minute


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Re: Terrorism

Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:02 am

You do realize, if you were responding to me in any way, that I was making essentially the same point?


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Re: Terrorism

Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:50 pm

RED3bution wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:02 am
You do realize, if you were responding to me in any way, that I was making essentially the same point?
Sorry I was actually responding to Relly who seems to think that things thatwork in other countries wont work in the US. If this is the case I wonder why the US has any laws at all, it's obvious that they wont work !


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Re: Terrorism

Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:48 pm

Unfortunately the US constitution (and its composite amendments) have taken on a " religious " significance in the same way as the Bible, Quran et al. Most rational religious believers accept that those tomes were "of their day" and whilst they may contain many good ideals for living a good life, they aren't set in absolute stone and the world changes as time moves on - there is a helluva lot of misogyny, racism, and other phobias in all these texts but 90% of believers in those religions accept that the world HAS moved on and they don't agree with stoning female adulterers and throwing gays off roofs. However the extreme fundamentalists of these religions would NEVER accept that - "if it was written then, it still applies now" would be their mantra.

So 2nd Amendment lovers are effectively the same as ISIS, Hezbollah and other such hateful sects which exist in all religions - nice company to be in!


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Re: Terrorism

Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:13 pm

RedSte wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:48 pm

So 2nd Amendment lovers are effectively the same as ISIS, Hezbollah and other such hateful sects which exist in all religions - nice company to be in!
That is an insane comment born out of complete and utter ignorance. You should be ashamed to compare law abiding citizens to such people just because they disagree with you.


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Re: Terrorism

Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:16 pm

not the same in their actions Ben obviously! - I'm comparing their mentality which is identical (did you even read the whole thing?)


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Re: Terrorism

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:22 pm

It's an odd comparison to make though mate. People can be dogmatic about all sorts. (including those who advocate gun control). I get your basic meaning but as mentioned groups have much worse attributes I don't think it's appropriate.

I actually agree with Relly to a degree :o I think there are some measures that could be brought in but banning guns or big categories of guns isn't happening. Comparisons to the UK or elsewhere don't really work. There are already millions of guns in the country.

I also think America has bigger fish to fry. But I understand this is an emotive issue. Like I said before I'm quite conflicted on this issue.


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Re: Terrorism

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:39 pm

Mushy peas wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:22 pm
It's an odd comparison to make though mate. People can be dogmatic about all sorts. (including those who advocate gun control). I get your basic meaning but as mentioned groups have much worse attributes I don't think it's appropriate.

I actually agree with Relly to a degree :o I think there are some measures that could be brought in but banning guns or big categories of guns isn't happening. Comparisons to the UK or elsewhere don't really work. There are already millions of guns in the country.

I also think America has bigger fish to fry. But I understand this is an emotive issue. Like I said before I'm quite conflicted on this issue.
Sorry but as an allegory to present day America it is totally valid, America claims to be the most advanced country in the world, but innocent children are being murdered because of what is witten on a 300yr old piece of parchment.

The only difference is the age of the piece of parchment !
ISIS are a wrong because of their belief in the literal writing of the Quran.

Americans are holding up the values of the 1700's can you not see the similarities ?

I ask you, is the right to carry a gun more important than the life of an innocent child ?


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Re: Terrorism

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:05 pm

Absolutely.

And for avoidance of doubt, I am NOTclaiming moral equivalence between obsessive US gun holders and ISIS supporters. There's a million miles in terms of morality between the two and I cant believe this even needed stating, but there I have. The equivalence is in the mindset. The blind adherence to a philosophy/ruleset (whatever you want to call it), to something written hundreds or thousands of years ago - believing that philosophy to be 100% relevant in every circumstance in today's world and a refusal to accept any tweaking or adaptation of that philosophy regardless of whatever anyone else says, whatever the outcome is, whatever the consequences are.


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Re: Terrorism

Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:18 pm

This is a rather long video, but it's basically like two halves and you can choose to watch the first discussion, second or both, but if you want to have a serious discussion on the issue I think watching this video and getting a lot of the truth that you may not get elsewhere is important. They are very civil conversations, that even the interviewees acknowledge that, and they might make you think a bit about your position. Again it's not short, but it sums up the discussion very well and worth a listen if you want to have an educated debate on the subject.



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