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Wednesday 12th December 2018, KO 20:00 UTC.
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Relly
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Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:40 am

What the fornicate is wrong with your country? You like to mock the US and its healthcare but at least they arent murdering babies. This is the second time in less than a year i can recall a story like this. Shame on your country for allowing this shit to happen.


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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:10 pm

err that sounds like you've read a tweet or heard a 10 second news report on it then? :roll:


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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:06 pm

Oh wow. It's OK. We can wait till you've read the full story.



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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:09 pm

Maybe I don't know it all, but please tell me how forcing parents to take their baby off life support and watch him die when other countries are offering to fly him there for treatment makes sense? Your shitty healthcare system can say, hey, we are done trying, fine, but to put armed police around the hospital to prevent the parents from taking their own kid and trying everything they can to save his life is tyrannical.


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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:13 pm

I don't know all the information, but fornicate it I'll still go ahead and accuse the NHS of killing babies.


Break up the Union.

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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:29 pm

LOL


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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:50 pm

Then one of you get off your fornicate high horse and please explain it to me why killing this kid was ok.


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Re: Dear England

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:52 pm

It's not killing or murder.

England is cool.


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Re: Dear England

Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:50 am

RedSte wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:10 pm
err that sounds like you've read a tweet or heard a 10 second news report on it then? :roll:
Wait. Surely not. From Relly? Can't be


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Re: Dear England

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:24 pm

I'd be interested in where you've been following the case.

In terms of police presence, they were there because of the actions of the so called Alfies Army, who attempted to rush the hospital multiple times and were threatening to set off the fire alarms to evacuate the hospital. This whilst other sick children were undergoing life saving surgery.

The situation is this. Alfie Evans suffered from a degenerative brain condition. This isn't curable, since doctors don't really know what the problem is. It's resulted in the destruction of 70% of his brain matter. He had lost all of his senses because of this, and there was no upper brain activity, which is indicative of consciousness. He had severe seizures, which the doctors were unable to control. There was no prospect of recovery, as we didn't even know what to treat, let alone how to cure it, and in any case, under the limits of modern medicine, we cannot reverse brain damage. In the exceedingly unlikely event that we diagnosed the condition and were able to formulate a treatment for the, the damage caused already is irreversible.

An American pro life activist called Christine Broesamle got involved, and convinced Alfies parents that they could arrange to fly him to Italy for treatment. The 'treatment' that was offered was basically a sham. For 65,000 Euros, they offered to cut a hole in his neck to insert a tube directly into his lungs rather than the one through his nose, pointless continued EEG and MRI scans for 14 days, hydration and DNA tests. At best, the DNA tests might help a child in future long after Alfie was dead. They gave Alfie the exact same prognosis as Alder Hey.

The idea that Alfie was murdered is absurd. He was kept alive for 18 months by Alder Hey, who did everything possible to help him, before concluding that there was no prospect of improvement, zero quality of life, and was being kept alive artificially with invasive procedures. Allowing him to be taken to Italy would only have prolonged his suffering. Whilst his parents might have benefited from this, Alfie would not. Not even the parents legal representatives argued going to Italy would actually help him, which is why they lost.

It's an utterly heartbreaking case, but the doctors were acting in Alfies best interest. The parents would of course want to pursue anything they thought would keep Alfie with them, but in this case it was snake oil merchants selling them false hope. This is why we have doctors to make these decisions. The parents were making an entirely understandable emotional decision. I believe without people like Christine Broesamle whispering in their ear, Alfies parents would have accepted long ago that unfortunately, we cannot do anything for their son, and would have been able to spend the remaining time with him, giving him all of their attention, rather than being diverted with a pointless grueling and emotionally draining legal case.

That's the saddest aspect for me. These scumbags took the parents away from their child at the time they needed to be with him the most.


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Re: Dear England

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:18 am

Dante wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:24 pm
I'd be interested in where you've been following the case.

In terms of police presence, they were there because of the actions of the so called Alfies Army, who attempted to rush the hospital multiple times and were threatening to set off the fire alarms to evacuate the hospital. This whilst other sick children were undergoing life saving surgery.

The situation is this. Alfie Evans suffered from a degenerative brain condition. This isn't curable, since doctors don't really know what the problem is. It's resulted in the destruction of 70% of his brain matter. He had lost all of his senses because of this, and there was no upper brain activity, which is indicative of consciousness. He had severe seizures, which the doctors were unable to control. There was no prospect of recovery, as we didn't even know what to treat, let alone how to cure it, and in any case, under the limits of modern medicine, we cannot reverse brain damage. In the exceedingly unlikely event that we diagnosed the condition and were able to formulate a treatment for the, the damage caused already is irreversible.

An American pro life activist called Christine Broesamle got involved, and convinced Alfies parents that they could arrange to fly him to Italy for treatment. The 'treatment' that was offered was basically a sham. For 65,000 Euros, they offered to cut a hole in his neck to insert a tube directly into his lungs rather than the one through his nose, pointless continued EEG and MRI scans for 14 days, hydration and DNA tests. At best, the DNA tests might help a child in future long after Alfie was dead. They gave Alfie the exact same prognosis as Alder Hey.

The idea that Alfie was murdered is absurd. He was kept alive for 18 months by Alder Hey, who did everything possible to help him, before concluding that there was no prospect of improvement, zero quality of life, and was being kept alive artificially with invasive procedures. Allowing him to be taken to Italy would only have prolonged his suffering. Whilst his parents might have benefited from this, Alfie would not. Not even the parents legal representatives argued going to Italy would actually help him, which is why they lost.

It's an utterly heartbreaking case, but the doctors were acting in Alfies best interest. The parents would of course want to pursue anything they thought would keep Alfie with them, but in this case it was snake oil merchants selling them false hope. This is why we have doctors to make these decisions. The parents were making an entirely understandable emotional decision. I believe without people like Christine Broesamle whispering in their ear, Alfies parents would have accepted long ago that unfortunately, we cannot do anything for their son, and would have been able to spend the remaining time with him, giving him all of their attention, rather than being diverted with a pointless grueling and emotionally draining legal case.

That's the saddest aspect for me. These scumbags took the parents away from their child at the time they needed to be with him the most.
Thank you Dante, I very much appreciate you taking the time to explain properly what has happened. I should have checked, but if I used the word murder I didn't mean it in a literal sense, obviously I don't think a doctor stabbed him with a scalpel or something. And while that all seems reasonable, and I do agree that his quality would likely never have been good, I think if the parents want to seek alternative treatment elsewhere then the NHS should not have stood in their way. Other than that, I think you have made a good case here.


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Re: Dear England

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:18 am

Ben - I think you have hit on the preverbal nail on the head with this issue. There is no correct call in situations like this.

It is absolutely the worse that can happen to a family, there are no good options. Science and medicine tell us that there there is no option, every options are lead to pain for someone, the choices are so brutal and painful that until you are faced with them they cannot be imagined.

The center of the problem is WHO should make this ultimate decision. As a "bleeding heart" I wrestle with this. I do not believe that any government has the right to make this call, the insurance companies defiantly should not be involved and it should never become a political plank for any party or focus group. The only place this decision belongs is with those who love those involved - the parent. It is not my call, or your call or anyone else's call. It will be the most difficult, heart wrenching decision that a person can make and unfortunately the parents will have so many voices, all with their own agendas, trying to HELP them.

This is what it means to be a parent.

My heart bleeds for the family.


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Re: Dear England

Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:59 am

Dante wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:24 pm
I'd be interested in where you've been following the case.

In terms of police presence, they were there because of the actions of the so called Alfies Army, who attempted to rush the hospital multiple times and were threatening to set off the fire alarms to evacuate the hospital. This whilst other sick children were undergoing life saving surgery.

The situation is this. Alfie Evans suffered from a degenerative brain condition. This isn't curable, since doctors don't really know what the problem is. It's resulted in the destruction of 70% of his brain matter. He had lost all of his senses because of this, and there was no upper brain activity, which is indicative of consciousness. He had severe seizures, which the doctors were unable to control. There was no prospect of recovery, as we didn't even know what to treat, let alone how to cure it, and in any case, under the limits of modern medicine, we cannot reverse brain damage. In the exceedingly unlikely event that we diagnosed the condition and were able to formulate a treatment for the, the damage caused already is irreversible.

An American pro life activist called Christine Broesamle got involved, and convinced Alfies parents that they could arrange to fly him to Italy for treatment. The 'treatment' that was offered was basically a sham. For 65,000 Euros, they offered to cut a hole in his neck to insert a tube directly into his lungs rather than the one through his nose, pointless continued EEG and MRI scans for 14 days, hydration and DNA tests. At best, the DNA tests might help a child in future long after Alfie was dead. They gave Alfie the exact same prognosis as Alder Hey.

The idea that Alfie was murdered is absurd. He was kept alive for 18 months by Alder Hey, who did everything possible to help him, before concluding that there was no prospect of improvement, zero quality of life, and was being kept alive artificially with invasive procedures. Allowing him to be taken to Italy would only have prolonged his suffering. Whilst his parents might have benefited from this, Alfie would not. Not even the parents legal representatives argued going to Italy would actually help him, which is why they lost.

It's an utterly heartbreaking case, but the doctors were acting in Alfies best interest. The parents would of course want to pursue anything they thought would keep Alfie with them, but in this case it was snake oil merchants selling them false hope. This is why we have doctors to make these decisions. The parents were making an entirely understandable emotional decision. I believe without people like Christine Broesamle whispering in their ear, Alfies parents would have accepted long ago that unfortunately, we cannot do anything for their son, and would have been able to spend the remaining time with him, giving him all of their attention, rather than being diverted with a pointless grueling and emotionally draining legal case.

That's the saddest aspect for me. These scumbags took the parents away from their child at the time they needed to be with him the most.
A desperately tragic situation brilliantly summed up Dante.
While I understand Relly's point, the wellbeing of little Alfie must come before the wishes of his parents.
Little Alfie has got his wings now so let him fly to Heaven and rest in peace for all eternity.God bless him. (f) (l)



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Re: Dear England

Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:53 pm

ArizonaRed wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:18 am
Ben - I think you have hit on the preverbal nail on the head with this issue. There is no correct call in situations like this.

It is absolutely the worse that can happen to a family, there are no good options. Science and medicine tell us that there there is no option, every options are lead to pain for someone, the choices are so brutal and painful that until you are faced with them they cannot be imagined.

The center of the problem is WHO should make this ultimate decision. As a "bleeding heart" I wrestle with this. I do not believe that any government has the right to make this call, the insurance companies defiantly should not be involved and it should never become a political plank for any party or focus group. The only place this decision belongs is with those who love those involved - the parent. It is not my call, or your call or anyone else's call. It will be the most difficult, heart wrenching decision that a person can make and unfortunately the parents will have so many voices, all with their own agendas, trying to HELP them.

This is what it means to be a parent.

My heart bleeds for the family.
It's an absolutely awful situation and my sister went through something very similar, i know how desperate the parents can get and having other people telling they are giving you must too is hard to take. But as much as i criticize our healthcare system they never gave up in my sisters case, and i think knowing they tried everything helped them.


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Re: Dear England

Tue May 01, 2018 12:40 am

Its a very fine line between doing what is best for the kid, letting the parents know you have done absolutely everything in your power and not giving up but then also making that heartbreaking decision.

While the parents are desperate to do anything, sometimes peace is the best answer. No one should ever have to go through that, and it's a pity such a delicate situation ended up so hotly debated

There really is no correct call, but in the end, my opinion is that the best call has to be maid for the patient, not the parents :(


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Re: Dear England

Wed May 02, 2018 6:40 am

Relly wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:50 pm
Then one of you get off your fornicate high horse and please explain it to me why killing this kid was ok.
Rule number one of reasoned debate is don't come in swearing at everyone.

Rule number two is try and read up on something properly before making sweeping statements.

Now Dante was kind enough to explain the situation. You may disagree with what should have been done and that's cool. It's a very shitty situation and ultimately a very difficult decision had to be made.

Calling people baby killers and turning this into some weird US vs UK healthcare false dichotomy is a bit pathetic.


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Re: Dear England

Thu May 03, 2018 11:57 pm

Mushy peas wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:40 am
Relly wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:50 pm
Then one of you get off your fornicate high horse and please explain it to me why killing this kid was ok.
Rule number one of reasoned debate is don't come in swearing at everyone.

Rule number two is try and read up on something properly before making sweeping statements.

Now Dante was kind enough to explain the situation. You may disagree with what should have been done and that's cool. It's a very shitty situation and ultimately a very difficult decision had to be made.

Calling people baby killers and turning this into some weird US vs UK healthcare false dichotomy is a bit pathetic.
I have spent the last two years on the receiving end of many an insulting, hyperbolic post delivered with an elitist attitude deriding my rather mainstream politic beliefs as some sort of racist, xenophobic, uneducated bastion of the past. Please forgive for taking advantage of a situation that points out how fornicate up the political system that a lot of those posters support is.


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Re: Dear England

Sat May 05, 2018 11:03 am

By using the death of a child as an excuse? Right on, man, right on.

:?


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Re: Dear England

Sat May 05, 2018 2:42 pm

t.d. wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:03 am
By using the death of a child as an excuse? Right on, man, right on.

:?
I'm one of the few that seems to have a problem with his death


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Re: Dear England

Tue May 15, 2018 7:39 pm

The doctors were acting in the best interest of the child not the parents to not prolong the suffering that the poor kid was going through.

You have to trust the doctors who have all his medical notes and history will do what’s best for the child and although you obviously have an issue with the nhs, you shouldn’t go round making blanket statements.



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Re: Dear England

Mon May 28, 2018 10:56 pm

Once again I ask, what the fornicate is wrong with your country? Even if you hate Tommy Robinson you can't try and pretend what is happening with him is right.

And don't think I have a problem with English people, I have spent most of my life following the English league very closely, chatting with numerous English people via this board and a couple other similar outlets. I just find it terrifying what is going on there and don't want to see that sort of totalitarian state forming in other western nations.


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Re: Dear England

Tue May 29, 2018 5:54 am

The UK has officially declared itself as a totalitarian, tyrannical, oppressive dictatorship.
It is a police state.
The current "government" is an illegitimate globalists' puppet regime that openly works against the interest of the British citizens and it has completely capitulated to Islam
(The so-called) Multiculturalism has destroyed democracy. Political correctness has paralyzed the legal system.
Political correctness is the official compulsory religion that everyone is forced to follow just in a cult-like fashion
British history is being "revised" (I'd say erased) and now the official narrative is the Britain has always been a "diverse" nation
They even claim that the first Britons had dark skin
Free speech is no longer tolerated. Anyone who dares to question the official narrative can literally be thrown in jail

This is what's happening to "their" former country Ben and you and I warned them a few years ago and we were laughed at.


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Re: Dear England

Tue May 29, 2018 3:05 pm

:laugh:
Do you know why Tommy Robinson was jailed?



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Dante
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Re: Dear England

Tue May 29, 2018 3:13 pm

Relly wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:56 pm
Once again I ask, what the fornicate is wrong with your country? Even if you hate Tommy Robinson you can't try and pretend what is happening with him is right.

And don't think I have a problem with English people, I have spent most of my life following the English league very closely, chatting with numerous English people via this board and a couple other similar outlets. I just find it terrifying what is going on there and don't want to see that sort of totalitarian state forming in other western nations.
You know he pleaded guilty right?


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Re: Dear England

Tue May 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Relly wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 10:56 pm
Once again I ask, what the fornicate is wrong with your country? Even if you hate Tommy Robinson you can't try and pretend what is happening with him is right.

And don't think I have a problem with English people, I have spent most of my life following the English league very closely, chatting with numerous English people via this board and a couple other similar outlets. I just find it terrifying what is going on there and don't want to see that sort of totalitarian state forming in other western nations.
He was on a suspended sentence for filming outside court, that time he didn't film the defendants only because the judge directed them to leave another way so he couldn't film them, but was told if he did it again he would be called to prison.

He broke the terms of his sentence, hence called to prison.

Where is the issue?


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