Where do United go from here?

[Dante]

So, Jose has brought us up to being, probably the second best team in the country. We're looking better than last seasons champions Chelsea, we've retained the mean defence whilst starting to score much more freely.

The problem is that City are seemingly out of this world. They've improved in almost every regard. And whilst they will likely drop more points in the second half of the season, they're certainly not going to collapse in the way we would need them to if we were to have a sniff of winning the League this year.

We can't outspend City ( we were roughly on par for net spend this summer), we can't raid them and it's unlikely other clubs will be able to either. So how do we close the gap?

[robertbrian23]

I believe we have the personnel to have a fluid attack. The problem is, are we going to a bug match with an attacking attitude and wouldn't go for long ball first?

The city game even though they have the possession a lot. It didn't trouble us as much. We just let them have it more and when we have the ball we just went for long balls. I'm sure Jose would think of a different way next time around but it might be too late. We can only hope and pray other teams would get points against City and let's see what will happen towards the end.

For us we need to get the Ws for every match. We can dominate teams but we really need to be wise on how to approach it. Some matches we are very poor from the start. Weird thing is - can we really get quality player during January window?

[JonSnow]

So, Jose has brought us up to being, probably the second best team in the country. We're looking better than last seasons champions Chelsea, we've retained the mean defence whilst starting to score much more freely.

The problem is that City are seemingly out of this world. They've improved in almost every regard. And whilst they will likely drop more points in the second half of the season, they're certainly not going to collapse in the way we would need them to if we were to have a sniff of winning the League this year.

We can't outspend City ( we were roughly on par for net spend this summer), we can't raid them and it's unlikely other clubs will be able to either. So how do we close the gap?

Van Gaal's thoughts:

[Sandies]

I see hes going down the Moyes route of deluded denial

[HuSsAiN]

3rd now, and liverpool breathing down our necks..

:S

[Relly]

And a month ago Liverpool would have said they were in crisis and Klopp seemed like a lame duck. I am not happy with what's going on, but hopefully it's just a bad patch they everyone but City seem to be going through.

[ivandaman]

We need to get our act together.. I'm fine with second. City seem to be like Wenger's invincibles but on some high end steroids. No way we can do anything this year about them. They are already champions. Thats a done deal.

But we spent more money than everyone else in the league and we should be aiming for second and certainly we should be able to win against Burnley and Southampton at home. We need to stay in the top 4. Finishing out of the top 4 would be unacceptable on any level and if this happens Moanihno should be kicked out of Old Trafford just like the other two clowns before him were..

[Relly]

We need to get our act together.. I'm fine with second. City seem to be like Wenger's invincibles but on some high end steroids. No way we can do anything this year about them. They are already champions. Thats a done deal.

But we spent more money than everyone else in the league and we should be aiming for second and certainly we should be able to win against Burnley and Southampton at home. We need to stay in the top 4. Finishing out of the top 4 would be unacceptable on any level and if this happens Moanihno should be kicked out of Old Trafford just like the other two clowns before him were..

I think this is probably going to be Mourinho's last season with us. He has been up to his old tricks this season, complaining about a lack of spending, not ruling out moving, etc. If PSG are looking for a coach this summer then I think he is definitely off, and there are one or two more that might tempt him.

And I don't think his complaints are necessarily just about the money, I think it's how we do business. I think us not signing Perisic was the beginning of the end of Mourinho at United. He identified him very early as his primary target, and Ed dicked around and made low ball offers until any interest in the move from Inter or Perisic was gone. And to his point, when Pep or Conte say I want that player, their clubs just go buy that player.

[ivandaman]

Mouninhno is overrated anyway.. If it wasn't for that russian referee who cancelled Scholes goal against Porto no one would have heard of him. He's just one of those people born under a very very lucky star. I give him credit for taking advantage of opportunities that came his way, but in my opinion he was never anything "Special" and neither he'll ever be. Just a very very luck dude. That's all he is.

As far as United and City are concerned. The era of United dominating is over. The best I personally hope for is that we can take advantage of each others upward and downward cycles. Something like what's happening with Madrid and Barcelona. A few years Barcelona is on top then they have a slight dip or decline and Madrid taking advantage of it. Then Barca get their shit together and push again for the top.

Something like this is the best we can hope for. City are here to stay. Only some financial cataclysm in the oil-world can bring them down. We thought Chelsea was this financial powerhouse with unlimited resources, but Abramovich is like poor little kid in comparison to city's owners. So things are not going to get any easier any time soon.

[RedSte]

We all knew this was going to eventually happen when the Sheikh bought the Berties. Only hope of avoiding a decade or more of City domination (with the occasional flourish from Chelsea) is if the Glazers can (a) be persuaded to sell and (b) if the buyer is one of the handful of people in the world who is richer than the Sheikh.

On the whole , pretty unlikely to happen, so prepare for a future of battling for a Top 4 place and the odd cup win (in other words, welcome to the United of my youth!)

[Sigmar]

Mouninhno is overrated anyway.. If it wasn't for that russian referee who cancelled Scholes goal against Porto no one would have heard of him. He's just one of those people born under a very very lucky star. I give him credit for taking advantage of opportunities that came his way, but in my opinion he was never anything "Special" and neither he'll ever be. Just a very very luck dude. That's all he is.

As far as United and City are concerned. The era of United dominating is over. The best I personally hope for is that we can take advantage of each others upward and downward cycles. Something like what's happening with Madrid and Barcelona. A few years Barcelona is on top then they have a slight dip or decline and Madrid taking advantage of it. Then Barca get their shit together and push again for the top.

Something like this is the best we can hope for. City are here to stay. Only some financial cataclysm in the oil-world can bring them down. We thought Chelsea was this financial powerhouse with unlimited resources, but Abramovich is like poor little kid in comparison to city's owners. So things are not going to get any easier any time soon.

Yes he is overrated isn't he

From Wiki
In 17 seasons of club management, Mourinho has led his club to win its domestic league eight times, the UEFA Champions League twice and the UEFA Cup/Europa League twice. Between 2003 and 2012, Mourinho did not go a single calendar year without winning at least one trophy.


Primeira Liga: 2002–03, 2003–04
Taça de Portugal: 2002–03
Supertaça Cândido de Oliveira: 2003
UEFA Champions League: 2003–04
UEFA Cup: 2002–03

Mourinho on the touchline against Leicester City in August 2014

Chelsea[216]

Premier League: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2014–15
FA Cup: 2006–07
Football League Cup: 2004–05, 2006–07, 2014–15
FA Community Shield: 2005

Internazionale[216]

Serie A: 2008–09, 2009–10
Coppa Italia: 2009–10
Supercoppa Italiana: 2008
UEFA Champions League: 2009–10

Real Madrid[216]

La Liga: 2011–12
Copa del Rey: 2010–11
Supercopa de España: 2012

Manchester United[216]

EFL Cup: 2016–17
FA Community Shield: 2016
UEFA Europa League: 2016–17

Individual

Onze d'Or Coach of the Year: 2005[217]
FIFA World Coach of the Year: 2010[8]
IFFHS World's Best Club Coach: 2004,[218] 2005,[218] 2010,[218] 2012[218]
Premier League Manager of the Year: 2004–05,[216] 2005–06,[216] 2014–15[216]
Premier League Manager of the Month: November 2004,[216] January 2005,[216] March 2007[216]
Serie A Manager of the Year: 2008–09,[219] 2009–10[220]
Albo Panchina d'Oro: 2009–10[221]
Miguel Muñoz Trophy: 2010–11,[222] 2011–12[223]
UEFA Manager of the Year: 2002–03,[224] 2003–04[224]
UEFA Team of the Year: 2003,[224] 2004,[224] 2005,[224] 2010[224]
The 10 Greatest Coaches of the UEFA era[225]
World Soccer Magazine World Manager of the Year: 2004,[226] 2005,[226] 2010[226]
World Soccer Magazine 3rd Greatest Manager of All Time: 2013
European Coach of the Year—Alf Ramsey Award: 2010
BBC Sports Personality of the Year Coach Award: 2005[227]
La Gazzetta dello Sport Man of the Year: 2010[228]
International Sports Press Association Best Manager in the World: 2010[229]
Prémio Prestígio Fernando Soromenho: 2012[230]
Football Extravaganza's League of Legends (2011)[231]
Globe Soccer Awards Best Coach of the Year: 2012[232]
Globe Soccer Awards Best Media Attraction in Football: 2012[233]
Portuguese Coach of the Century: 2015[4]

You don't get that lot with luck....or do you?

[ivandaman]

I know the stats. As I've said. Credit to him for taking advantage of the opportunities that presented themselves. Keep in mind that he was always coaching teams with good budgets. Inter may have been an exception. Not sure how financially strong they were at the time. But Chelsea, Madrid and United are all clubs with solid financial resources. If he makes a Champion of Newcastle than we are talking about someone "Special" ..

[Sigmar]

I know the stats. As I've said. Credit to him for taking advantage of the opportunities that presented themselves. Keep in mind that he was always coaching teams with good budgets. Inter may have been an exception. Not sure how financially strong they were at the time. But Chelsea, Madrid and United are all clubs with solid financial resources. If he makes a Champion of Newcastle than we are talking about someone "Special" ..

Point taken, but life just happens to be about taking chances, fortune favours the brave and all that

[Relly]

We all knew this was going to eventually happen when the Sheikh bought the Berties. Only hope of avoiding a decade or more of City domination (with the occasional flourish from Chelsea) is if the Glazers can (a) be persuaded to sell and (b) if the buyer is one of the handful of people in the world who is richer than the Sheikh.

On the whole , pretty unlikely to happen, so prepare for a future of battling for a Top 4 place and the odd cup win (in other words, welcome to the United of my youth!)

It all depends on Pep, and I don't think he'll be around too long. City have been very hit and miss since they got taken over. One year win, next year garbage. Things have come together in Peps second year, but it all depends on him sticking around to keep that going.

[ArizonaRed]

It's been my experience that very talented people who work hard usually get lucky.

[Dante]

United are broken, and I don't know how to fix it.

People can say Jose needs to be sacked, but it's massively apparent that the man in charge doesn't matter post Fergie. I've been trying to put my finger on what the problem is, without success. This article just solidified my thoughts though.

The problem is the Glazers. Throughout Fergies career, he accumulated power over almost the entirety of the club. He's probably the most powerful manager in the history of football. From 2005 to 2013, this was largely left alone, as pissing off Fergie was not worth their time. It was a battle they'd have lost, and in any case he didn't threaten their asset stripping so why bother?

After he left though, there was suddenly a massive power vacuum. This could have been diffused somewhat if David Gill had not left at the same time, but as it was, the two most powerful men at the club left at the same time, and into that gap they thrust David Moyes, a manager who had never managed a club of that size, and was therefore limited in what he was allowed control over, and Ed Woodward, a man with sharp business acumen who could negotiate a hell of a noodle sponsorship, but was an incompetent buffoon when it came to matters of football.

Moyes came and went having been completely hamstrung by Woodward, in came Van Gaal, who received more backing but still suffered from incompetent transfer dealings and complained that the clubs commercial activities were causing the football to suffer.

A curious appointment from the start, he left under a cloud as an FA Cup winner, but some dour, negative displays combined with the failure to qualify for the Champions League saw him off.

It was against this background that Mourinho was brought in. The ultimate short term solution with a reputation for not developing youth, buying short term success and parking the bus was brought in. He delivered trophies, Champions League football, and established the club as second best behind an outstanding Man City side. He presented his list of targets to Woodward, who overruled the man who has won league titles in four different leagues, Champions League's with two different clubs and the Europa League at United on footballing grounds. The idea that Ed Woodward is more qualified to judge this than Mourinho is utterly laughable.

Even if he made a financial argument, Mourinho who's track record is clear to all and had been handed a new contract the year before would be able to reasonably point out that he's not doing anything different to what he's always done which delivered success everywhere he has been, and United's financial position should be far better than it ever was under the all conquering Fergie.

If people moan about not playing youth, he can point to picking Rashford over 100 times, Lingard nearly 100 times, and promoted McTominay to the squad, and has continually talked him up even when he's not been picked, as well as the fact he was backed by the club last season on his record with a new contract, so again this shouldn't really matter. If any of this is a problem he should never have been appointed in the first place and who appointed him? Glazer stooge Woodward.

Mourinho has certainly spent the season trying to prove points, which is definitely not the greatest idea, but if it forces the hand of those above him then he'll feel it's worth it in the long run. I can't really argue with back me or sack me. If he has been given certain expectations, but financial considerations over-ride this, or people begin to second guess him it's not tenable. That wouldn't change if we sacked him and appointed Zidane.

Which brings me to where do we go. I honestly think that of all the managers who are without a club, Blanc is the only one who would have a chance of success, but I don't think the current setup of the club allows anyone to succeed. I hate the position of director of football, but if it gets Woodward the fornicate out of football dealings it might help. If Woodward still holds a veto we're fornicate though, because his priority is lining the Glazers pockets, and we only need to be hanging around the top 4 for that, not competing at the top. You could get rid of him, but he'd be replaced with another lapdog.


In the end, the Glazers are killing the club, but not in the way people thought they would. They should never have been allowed to buy the club without having any money and then loading the debt used for the purchase on to the club, but by ruthlessly exploiting the commercial potential, they've actually managed to render the debt irrelevant. The problem is they just don't care about the club being the best in England, let alone the world. Manchester United is just something that exists for them to extract cash from.

We'd probably have been better off with Michael Knighton.

[Kinnell]

Excellent post Dante,the point you make about the power vacuum left when Fergey and Gill left at the same time is pivotal to the decline in fortunes for the most part.
David Conn and Martin Samuel in the Guardian and Mail have written superb articles recently about how Woodward and the Glazers see the club as nothing more than a cash machine that never stops giving.


The first thing that needs to happen is the appointment of a renowned Director of Football to stop the football illiterate Woodward from tampering in things he knows nothing about.
We also need to find out the exact opinions that Jose and the players have of each other otherwise we wont be going anywhere.


I have a dream that the class of 92 will,one day soon,come riding down from the mountain top to make the Glazers an offer they can't refuse and lead us all to the promised land.(sorry Martin).

[raycreative]

and finally the penny drops!!!
I was saying this for the last 4 years and all you guts did was bar me for keeping on about it.

But before you ban me again follow this line of thought

The manager has given up trying to build a team.It is just not possible as Dante has correctly pointed out.
Ed Woodward just won't spend the Glazer dividend money
So Jose wants off and he is being as mercenary as the thieving owners are
I am reliably informed that his contract states that if they just fire him then they have to pay his full contract however if it is mathematically impossible to be in the top 4 then they can pay him the least amount when they fire him.Watch out in late March for the bullet
Of the team
DDG-been offered a new contract and won't sign
Ashley Young-Legs have gone
uke Shaw-Using every excuse such as "i don't deserve it yet!!" to put off signing the new contract on offer.His contract ends this season and i fully expect to hear that he has opened negotiations with Chelsea,the team he supports at Xmas and leave on a free at the end of the season
Valencia-legs have gone
Centre halves-not worth a nob of goatshit between them.Before you tell me Jose bought Bailly i would ask you to consider the question "Did he?" or did Ed Woodward buy him cheap and tell Jose it was him or nobody
Why didn't we buy McGuire or Alderweld.Both were available and Jose low balled Spurs knowing they wouldn't budge and didn't go after MacGuire after he said he would come so he signed a new Leicester contract.
Fred-I just don't believe the price tag .Nobody else was after him.An average player

Midfield
Pogba has made it clear he wants to go and win things.That is more than the Glazers want
The premium time to sell him is at the end of the season.Expect to receive £150 million
Mata-Out of contract this season
Fellaini-Has become one of our better players.That doesn't make him good but shows where our standard is

Up front
Martial-Has made it clear he wants to leave .They will get most money at the end of this season.Expect £50/70 million
Lukaku-Worst Manchester United centre forward in my 60 years of watching.He turns like the Titanic trying to miss the iceberg and when you play a one-two with him you might as well play the ball against an octagonal lampost.It could go anywhere
Still no genuine class width n the team is there??

So come the end of the season when you ask again"What happens now?" you will continue to get the silence from the Glazers/Ed Woodward/The club
They will bank the Pogba and Matial £200m plus and go on tour

No much left is there
Maybe DDG,no fullbacks,shit centre halves,Sanchez,Fred,McTominay,Rashford,Fellaini,Jesse and the Titanic

Oh a bit of end of season tour info
The first team are off to the Far East but the Ladies team are going to the USA where they will play to sell out crowds in the part of the world where womens football is at its most popular
Now do you guys understand why they were so proud to announce they were forming a womens team
One tour a year in the States makes a fortune

Can you imagine the conversation between Woodward and the Glazers at the end of the season?
So Ed how does it work?
Well we are out of the top 4(Never mind the earlier post about "being around the top 4".This is a 6 or 7 team
So if we don't get in the top 4 at the end of next season we will lose about £100 million in sponsorship
"Oh that's bad.What do we need to do to get back in the top 4?"
Well we have to spend the Martial and Pogba £200m and add about another £400 million and pay top top wages to give ourselves a chance
"So let me understand you clearly Ed.Are you saying that if we keep half of the Pogba and Martial money and buy a few pricks like you have done for the last few years then we still make a huge profit and keep all the other sponsorship and Tv etc?"
Yes that's right
"Well tell the mugs we are committed blah blah blah"
This club is in a terminal tailspin and has been since Fergie pissed off McManus and Magnier
Evety word Gary Neville said was correct.This club is rotten to the core.He didn't suggest it was still going down.It is !!

Today has been business as normal
Club sent out an email telling everybody i know they were unlucky in the City ballot
It will be like a Chinese takeaway outside City's ground on Derby da

Next email was make sure you get your ticket for United v Liverpool/City/Chelsea and Arsenal from £499 plus VAT

Next email was "Limited availability for the United Xmas party.IN NOVEMBER.
£40 gets you International fine dining and a cracker and a party hat

Has anybody seen todays gossip on twitter
Zlatan the great is rumoured to be coming back around Xmas to help out for a few months
Help out who???
The megastore??
Wouldn't rule out Wazza coming back for two months either to help sell shirts

In case they ban me again(i don't really care i have noticed a few asking where i had gone.
The answer is that the admin appear like to keep the active members down to about 6 and they prefer to be brainwashed by Donald Trump rather than see what is going on at our great club
If i am banned feel free to contact me directly at raymondadler@aol.com and i will keep anybody with real concerns up to date

[raycreative]

forgot to add my opinion of the manager
When Jose goes and it will be soon expect to see the cheap options ie anybody whose contract they don't have to buy out
Maybe Roy Keane assisted by Carrick and Ricky (the reserve team coach) or Big Sam(cheap and at his age he is not looking to build much)
No manager worth his salt will take up the mantle with this lot
Seen it 3 times now with Moyes,LVG and now Jose
Don't back them,don't speak other a few(and i mean few press releases)
The attitude to the fans is " If you don't like it sod off" "We still have enough tourists and pilgrims to fill the coffers for the next 6-10 years"
Woodward told you only recently
"Success is not important on the field"

[Sandies]

Lukaku-Worst Manchester United centre forward in my 60 years of watching.He turns like the Titanic trying to miss the iceberg and when you play a one-two with him you might as well play the ball against an octagonal lampost.It could go anywhere
Still no genuine class width n the team is there??

I agree with everything you have said Ray but this just isn't true.

He was great last season - has scored 30 goals a year WHEREVER he plays and he looked genuinely world class in the world cup. With ANY sort of service he is a 30 goal a year forward easily, and has been his whole career. More goals than Drogba etc at a much younger age. He brought Hazard, De Bruyne etc and genuine world class stars into the game in a world cup and looked fornicate good doing it


This system, this team with the players around him and I don't know how anyone could function as a forward

[raycreative]

i totally agree that Lukaku isn't given any help from out wide but his touch is terrible.
Not just on an odd occasion but as the joke goes around Old Trafford "his second touch is a tackle"
He can't head a ball under any circumstances.In fact he is the master at not getting near either a clearance from our goalkeeper or near the odd cross
Just look at the percentage of important balls won in the air,compared to Fellaini
He does not move or attempt to drag defences around
And finally,for such a big strong man he is easily pushed off a ball.He cannot hold play up ala Mark Hughes or Diego Costa
I have been used to watching Mark Hughes,Ruud van Nistlerooy,Andy Cole,Berbatov,Dwight Yorke
These were great goalscorers,scoring great goals in important games
Lukaku scores an odd goal against weak opposition only in nothing games

[Sandies]

I see another 2 goals last night for the titanic

[raycreative]

Usain Bolt also scored two in Australia last night so not sure what your point is other than to possibly confirm Lukasz scores a high percentage of his goals in irrelevant games,mostly against weak opposition
To be fair I have not seen Belgiums game from last night
I have just looked at the summary on the BBC website
It notes that Belgium had a lot of chances/shots and makes a comment about Lukaku missing from 6yards just before he scored the winner

[raycreative]

Aye Aye
Michael Carrick has said in an interview that he would like to be a manager one day
Maybe I’m a cynic but I can already see Ed Woodward being proud to announce about next April(ish)that the club has appointed Steve Bruce and Michael Carrick as joint managers
Well it would be a cheap option and we know the Glazers like cheap
It also is a good sound bite

[Sigmar]

In the end, the Glazers are killing the club, but not in the way people thought they would. They should never have been allowed to buy the club without having any money and then loading the debt used for the purchase on to the club, but by ruthlessly exploiting the commercial potential, they've actually managed to render the debt irrelevant. The problem is they just don't care about the club being the best in England, let alone the world. Manchester United is just something that exists for them to extract cash from.

We'd probably have been better off with Michael Knighton.

So the Edwards family became millionaires by being butchers and selling dodgy meat ?

The only difference between the Edwards family and The Glazers is the Glazers are American. As for Michael Knighton, he was ready to buy the club, until he saw the 'real' accounts, then pulled out, and was offered a place on the board to keep his mouth shut.

We were still pissing in guttters before The Glazers took over, women didn't go to the loo, they held it in.

Stop blaming The Glazers, they have backed every manager since Fergie left with transfer money, it's what we have bought that has let us down.