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Life after Matt

Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:42 am

With all the constant speculation about SAF I thought I'd post this



1969: Matt Busby retires from Man United

Football legend Sir Matt Busby has announced he will retire as manager of Manchester United at the end of the season - FA Cup final day on 26 April.

Sir Matt, who is 59, told a news conference at the club's ground at Old Trafford: "It's time to make way for a younger man... a track-suited manager".

He said the pressures of managing a top-class team were becoming too great for a man of his age and he would now take on the role of general manager.

"United is no longer just a football club," he said, "it is an institution. I feel the demands are beyond one human being."


The new team manager has not yet been chosen but one man that may well be considered for the job is Wilf McGuinness, a former United wing-half, a coach and manager of England Under-23s.

Munich air tragedy

Sir Matt is English football's longest serving manager. He took over United in 1945 and has since had a superlative record of achievement.

With the £1 million in profits he has since made for the club he rebuilt Old Trafford, which had been badly damaged by the blitz.

He has managed three highly successful teams. The first won the 1948 FA Cup Final against Blackpool.

The second team of talented young players, known as the "Busby Babes", included Bobby Charlton and Duncan Edwards.

In 1958 tragedy struck when eight players were killed in an air crash at Munich after competing for the European Cup against Red Star Belgrade in Yugoslavia.

Sir Matt was seriously injured but survived, along with Charlton who said of him today: "Matt Busby's presence will always be at Manchester United. He is Manchester United."

After the Munich tragedy, Sir Matt built up his third team, which included the transfer of Denis Law from Italian side Torino for a record fee of £116,000.

In May last year United beat Portuguese team Benfica 4-1 to win the European Cup - the first English side to do so.

In June Sir Matt was awarded a knighthood.


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That was the news that broke our hearts - the great man was leaving, what was to become of us? I remember constantly asking Dad in the hope that he would be able to give me the answer, his answer of "He deserves his retirement" wasn't enough. Like today's young fans I had known nothing else but United and Matt, to have one without the other was unthinkable

Rumours abounded, Jock Stein, Bobby Charlton, nobody thought Wilf had it in him, sadly we were right

I'll never forget the last match, because of postponements and the back log the last game with Matt in charge actually took place at home to Leicester City on the 17th May, it was probably one of the most emotional days ever at Old Trafford, men and women wept openly around the stadium, when the final whistle went just about everyone was on the pitch chanting the name "Busby, Busby" he finally came out and the roar was deafening, the fans wouldn't go home, nobody wanted to leave, we seemed to think as long as we stayed there he was still in charge.

To be honest as far as the results for a new manager Wilf did alright in his first season, we finished 8th, the previous year, Matt's last we had finished 11th, he also got us to the Semi Finals of the League and FA Cup, everything looked pretty good for Wilf on the surface, especially after we beat Liverpool 4-1 at Anfield

Underneath that surface, apart from the fact Wilf had problems with some of the more senior players there were two words that caused him massive headaches and would eventually wreck his career, those two words were ---- George Best

Everything hinged on him, Bobby was just a shadow of his former self, it was as though after 29th May 1968 his career was fulfilled and he just went through the motions, Denis was slowed right down thanks to his crippling injuries, the young lads weren't coming through anymore, and then after a shocking defeat at Goodison we went and signed Ian Ure there was an element of panic around the club ---- even so 8th and two semi finals was ok

But there were problems off the field, our fans had now become the worst in the country, every single away game turned into a riot, part of the Stretford End got cordoned off after Bobby Moncur got hit with a flick knife causing Old Trafford to be shut for two home games


The other problem was the sudden influx of new fans after we won the European Cup and the exit of the older fans because of the swearing and violence that streamed out of the Stretford End, and those new fans demanded instant success, and even worse it lead to conflict inside Old Trafford, during a 4-1 home defeat to Southampton sections of the crowd began booing United, next thing fighting broke out at various points around the ground, even near us in the Paddock as long standing fans laid into the boo boys

Rumours and accusations abounded about unrest within the team, everyone knew that Bobby and George had stopped speaking to each other, Denis Law clashed firstly with team mate, John Fitzpatrick at Palace and then with Ian Ure during the Leeds match

Then came Eva Haroldstead, or as George said, "Me and a pair of tits" firstly they got engaged (George and the owner of the tits), then they broke it off, (the engagement not the tits) then she sued George for breach of promise, then Paddy broke her boyfriends jaw ... fiasco and trouble we cold do without

Then George built himself a house, more trouble, then he ended up locked in Sinead Cusacks flat with the press camped on the doorstep, then came suspensions and trouble with everyone

Finally halfway through the following season Wilf got sacked, the club was heading for disaster, there was a complete breakdown in the dressing rooms, stories that more senior players wouldn't take orders from WIlf, and rumours that training sessions had become a complete joke, So Wilf went and Matt returned, United steadied and moved away from relegation

Some good things happened, George got 6 against Northampton after a six week suspension, but what was causing the headaches for us fans was which United were we watching? If we had been average we could have lived with that, but we weren't, for 3-4 matches we would be woeful, so bad that by half time the chants started to fade, we were absolutely useless

Then all of sudden, the same 11 players, same pitch, same stadium and you'd think you were watching Brazil against Doncaster Rovers, a superb fluid football machine, beat anyone in the world, next week back to total crap again

Stepney was all that stood between us and some of the biggest defeats in history

Then came O'Farrell, what more can I say than to quote Denis Law "He came and went a stranger"
Even now I know absolutely nothing about him, he was so remote. Yet at first we thought we had found the man
We had to play 2 home games away from Old Trafford as a punishment for crowd trouble, O'Farrell tried to get Wembley as our home ground, we were impressed, "This guy thinks nothing is too good for United"

WRONG

He again did ok, in fact he did better than ok, it came to Christmas and we were out in front - top of the league, won 17 of our first 21 matches, and we won them well, we only lost two, one against Leeds at Old Trafford that....... well a questionable referee on first name terms with the Leeds players didn't help.
Then the wheels fell off, we never won a single game until the end of March, it was abysmal

But we finished 8th again, a big disappointment after leading the way for so long, but really for a first season in charge it wasn't bad

Then he made the first of his big mistakes, at the last match of the season after the final whistle blew the usual pitch invasion took place ---- he never came out

That pissed a lot of people off, he said that he didn't see the point we hadn't won anything, the United players tried to persuade him but nope, Paddy reckoned he was home before the fans.
The general idea had gone from "Nothing to good for United" to "He thinks he's too good for us"

Then he went and signed Wyn Davies, George Graham and Ted McDougall - the best that can be said about them is Wyn gave us 110% on the pitch, just a shame he was 10 years past his best

We stuttered and stammered into the start of the season, then we stopped, and we stayed stopped, right at the foot of the 1st Division Table, finally after more trouble with George, drinking and police chases, United sacked both O'Farrell

and Best

For good

So we said

we did

Except when Matt said "I want him out of my hair, I don't want to hear his name mentioned here again" he left out the part that when he went and dragged George back from his earlier retirement to run Slack Alice Nightclub he's made George sign a 6 year contract

and that contract sat snugly in Matt Busby's safe, behind Matt Busby's desk in Matt Busby's office - if George thought he was retired he had another think coming, and as far as taking the advice of the press and selling him, United had about as much intention of doing that as they did about turning the ground into an ice cream parlour

Thanks to Matt again we avoided relegation by 4 points,

4 points, that's how close this club came to going out of existence as we know it

If we had gone down that season we would have been doomed, it was only because we were still a 1st Division club Docherty came that summer

A poll was conducted by the Daily Mirror, not one of the other 20 managers said they would take the job for any amount of money, even Shankly said if he was just starting out again it would be the last job in the world to take, he'd rather sweep the streets


So Docherty came, thankfully between them George and Alex Stepney along with Matt's interventions had bought United enough time until the right man came, one who not only took us into the Second Division but brought us straight back up again and built a team that stayed up


They were dreadful times though, Matt had left shoes that were to big to fill, people were absolutely scared shitless of the job, even Herra from Inter Milan laughed when they asked him about it, "You think I am A FOOL?"

Many people said it was Matt's fault for staying on as general Manager, it's a good job he did, O'Farrell wanted to buy every 35 year old in the 4th Division, if Matt hadn't been around and we had gone down with O'Farrell we would still be in the second division, back then you got relegated you stayed relegated, many teams kept on going into the 4th division ask Ipswich, Champions one year in the 4th division 5 years later

The biggest shock when Docherty first came was the return of George Best, the second biggest shock was when he played his first game back, I was horrified, you think Ronaldo is fat, should of seen George, I was in tears, Matt was gone, Denis had gone, my era was over. It was heartbreaking


Just some myths to explode though .... about Docherty, some of you may have seen the film "BEST" in this Docherty abuses Bobby and Nobby on a regular basis, hate to tell the film makers this, but both had left the Club before Docherty got here

The other one is Docherty says George turned up pissed and with a woman for the game against Plymouth Argyle, that is a complete and disgusting lie, I was stood at the players entrance when George arrived with Paddy Crerand, so were many others, I got both their autographs in fact, there was no woman and George was in fact starting to look like his old self

They were terrible times though, relegation was the best thing that happened in the end, it didn't seem like it at the time, but something had to happen, the club needed breathing space and hopefully in the Second Division we would be out of the lime light and get left alone, that didn't happen, we set the place on fire, if anything we attracted more reporters than ever, the BBC had to start showing our matches to save their MOTD programme

Maybe when Sir Alex goes I might have a break from football for a decade or so, once in a lifetime is enough to go through that



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Re: Life after Matt

Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:54 pm

Thanks for that Lawman. The day SAF will leave United, will be a very sad time, but I don't think we'll go through the same rigmarole when Matt left

Good read (Y)
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Re: Life after Matt

Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:03 pm

John I have been wanting to know how people like you adapt with life when Sir Matt retires and thank you for another meaningful post..The more i read about it, the more i dont want that day to come.. :roll:

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Re: Life after Matt

Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:34 pm

Great post John,Im not looking forwards to the day Sir Alex retires,do you think he will take a role similar to Sir Matts did or do you think he will walk away from the club for a while?

farmer john

Re: Life after Matt

Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:06 pm



Rumours abounded, Jock Stein, Bobby Charlton, nobody thought Wilf had it in him, sadly we were right


according to tom tyrrell the candidates in the frame to replace matt were-

don revie :evil: :x (N) ,ken furphy :roll: , jock stein (too old),alf ramsey :evil: (N) ,brian clough (Y) , noel cantwell (N) and bobby charlton (N)

there was even talk of a noel cantwell/malcomn allison partnership :shock: :evil: (N) (N) :x

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:06 am

thanks a lot for the post lawman, great read!

definitely not looking forward to the day SAF will retire :(

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:11 am

I'm not either

When Matt went, we still clung to the hope he would change his mind

There were two schools of thought about his role as general manager-

Most of us agreed, in hindsight, it was the only thing he could have done, O'Farrell would have completely destroyed United if Matt hadn't stepped in, Docherty wanted to spend 100,000 on Peter Osgood, and a further 300,000 on Peter Shilton, Shilton as wonderful as he was, wasn't worth that, part of that was Docherty wanted Stepney out of the team, there were personal reasons behind that


But other people blamed Matt for everything, Joe Mercer said "Nobody will do anything with that Club as long as the Big Fella is still upstairs"
That was the general opinion of most people, in his absence he cast a large shadow, still being there he cast an even larger one

The problem arose with the likes of O'Farrell and Docherty, because they, like all the other managers believed United had unlimited wealth, we didn't, we weren't exactly broke, but we had got to a stage were we had to count the pennies, for one thing we hadn't played in Europe since 1968/69, George's demise was demolishing the same souvenir shop he'd built, 90% of stuff that got sold was George Best posters, mugs, badges and shoulder bags

The staggering profits of the late 60s and up until 1970 had vanished

I think both arguments are valid, he had to stay, yes. But, he also broke his own rules by doing so, he would never have joined United in the first place if a previous manager was still in place somewhere or other, that's why neither he nor Shankly would take the Liverpool job after the war, the manager didn't have the final say

And maybe that is what Matt was looking for in his successor a man like himself --- if a man, like SAF for example had applied for the job and said "Yes, I'll take it, but I do it my way and you keep your big fornicate gob shut" Then Matt would have gladly stepped down knowing he'd found the right man

maybe?

Romulus

Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:34 am

I will count the time after SAF leaves as AF (after Ferguson). I am dreading the moment, and praying that history wont repeat itself. This is why I never understood the Sack Fergie calls. People just don't realize how good we have and how great it is to have stability at the helm.

It must have sucked to have so much instability after so many years of Matt managing the club. Especially since the next ones were not up to it.
cheers John great post.

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:56 am

On this day in history by Condor has just jogged my memory on something .... or rather someone

Ian Storey Moore

O'Farrell made the biggest cats arse of that transfer you've ever seen.

We heard we were interested, then on this one Saturday Brian Clough paraded him round The Baseball Ground as Derby County's new signing, next thing the shit hit the fan by the bucket full, Ian was already a Manchester United player


What had happened was United went into talks with Ian and Nottingham Forest and terms had been agreed and it seemed he'd actually signed,

But

O'Farrell had told Ian and Forest he couldn't confirm the final deal until he got back to Old Trafford and spoken to the board and then he would be in touch about putting the final draft to his contract,

And Ian never heard another thing, he rang O'Farrell and O'Farrell never rang him back, in the end he believed the deal was off (this was about 2 weeks later) so when Forest put him back on the market, they hadn't been told anything more either, Clough swooped and had him back to Derby just before the kick off and announced the signing

The people down in London blew a fuse, because sitting on their desk was Ian papers registering him as a Manchester United player, they thought he was already at United and were waiting for news of his debut, Ian and Forest were just as bewildered

Then Forest tried to claim the deal null and void saying United hadn't finalised the contract and the blokes in London said "Oh yes they have, they sent us the paperwork 2 weeks ago, why is he still training with Nottingham Forest?"

Turned out O'Farrell got back to Old Trafford and sent off the paperwork and said nothing to anyone

Like George Best said, "If that had been me I would have told United to get fornicate"


As Romulus (Hail Romulus) said, we went from all that stability with Matt to a backyard operation overnight

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:23 am

Bloody hell,talk about a shambles,thats a sham of a sham.


If history does repeat itself as it sadly tends to often do so,United would be buggered this time around.


They say the England managers the hardest job in football,i beg to differ,it takes someone very very special to succeed at United,Sir Matt and Sir Alex are proof of that.

Romulus

Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:21 am

Very true Mikey. All it takes is one silly loss and you have muppets calling for the head of the most successful manager in the club's history. Look at the gooners, Arsene does not win shit for years they don't moan, they know they wont find a better manager, they just get on with it and let him coach his "kids." People take the gaffer for granted here,they think anyone we hire can do as good a job. I believe them to be fornicate wrong. Hopefully they wont be ever proven how wrong it can get.

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:28 am

Well Helenio Herrera wouldn't touch the job and he was manager of Inter Milan during the pressure cooker years 1960-68, That bloke was right in the middle of all the controversy that engulfed Italian Football (again) during those years, and he had Mafia bosses threatening him with special treatment if the team didn't perform, including several "Win this/lose this game or else" threats during his time there

If he reckoned the job at United was to big, then ...... well says it all really

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:31 am

Romulus wrote:Very true Mikey. All it takes is one silly loss and you have muppets calling for the head of the most successful manager in the club's history. Look at the gooners, Arsene does not win shit for years they don't moan, they know they wont find a better manager, they just get on with it and let him coach his "kids." People take the gaffer for granted here,they think anyone we hire can do as good a job. I believe them to be procreating wrong. Hopefully they wont be ever proven how wrong it can get.
I don't think Arsenal had the influx of glory hunters we had though, their fans have always been like ours traditionally were, I know that a fair few swapped between them and Chelsea, but the core of their supporters stayed, then again they never had that many to lose in the first place

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:57 am

I suppose the glory hunter thing is a double edged sword that both Sir Matt and Sir Alex are responsable for with the success they have brought to United over the years.

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:11 pm

There wasn't so much of it in Matt's time until we actually won the European Cup, mainly because there was no overall domination by one particular team, plus fans were different as well, for instance if United were down the south coast United fans would go over and watch City or maybe a Rugby League match, nobody got looked at as traitors for doing that, Dad and me went over to watch Everton a couple of times a season with the in-laws, even went to Anfield for a few European Cup games when United weren't in Europe, difference was we went to watch Liverpool AND Celtic, with United we went as supporters

But you still stuck to your main team, there was a difference between "Going watchin" and Supporting

Sad that hatred has ruined that, it was funny going to Goodison and hearing Dad ribbing his mates with stuff like "We get more in the bogs at half time than you get for a Derby match"

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:19 pm

So its all Fergies fault then?



My first memory of glory supporters is Liverpool fans at school,in Salford in the 80's,do you know of any before then?

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Re: Life after Matt

Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:23 pm

There were a couple, one kid at school went Spurs, Everton, Liverpool, United, Liverpool, United and then when it became City he got the crap kicked out of him

There have been those sort of fans, but the numbers weren't as high as now, I do know we had an official supporters club on Merseyside back in the 60s, that was something else that pissed the Liverpool fans off with us

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Re: Life after Matt

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:26 pm

I've always realised that life after SAF isn't going to be easy but seeing what we went through after Matt and specially for the fans, I fear the day SAF retires. I don't believe we'll be on the brink of relegation due to the changed state of the game but we might be in mid table wilderness if it isn't handled properly. thank you lawman once more for your wonderful insights.....
"I play to fight.....the idea of losing" - Le King Eric Cantona

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Re: Life after Matt

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:08 am

mikey mikey wrote:Bloody hell,talk about a shambles,thats a sham of a sham.


If history does repeat itself as it sadly tends to often do so,United would be buggered this time around.


They say the England managers the hardest job in football,i beg to differ,it takes someone very very special to succeed at United,Sir Matt and Sir Alex are proof of that.
I was just reading about the Ian Storey - Moore fiasco

He had even passed his medical and O'Farrell left him sitting down at Forest waiting

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Re: Life after Matt

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:29 am

Great read...thanks, Lawfan (Y)

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Re: Life after Matt

Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:59 am

babysenorita wrote:John I have been wanting to know how people like you adapt with life when Sir Matt retires and thank you for another meaningful post..The more i read about it, the more i dont want that day to come.. :roll:
i'm dreading it too siti.
terrific post john (Y)

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Re: Life after Matt

Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:32 am

Romulus wrote:I will count the time after SAF leaves as AF (after Ferguson). I am dreading the moment, and praying that history wont repeat itself. This is why I never understood the Sack Fergie calls. People just don't realize how good we have and how great it is to have stability at the helm.

It must have sucked to have so much instability after so many years of Matt managing the club. Especially since the next ones were not up to it.
cheers John great post.
That's the whole point, I don't believe there is anyone out there up to the job, except (don't laugh at this) maybe Jose - he's the only one who would have the ego not to be phased by the task

People will get the shock of their lives when SAF goes, those people who called for his sacking over the last 4 years, how many replacements would have come in and won the Title and be now standing on the verge of another one?

I bet you any money that if we had got rid of SAF and appointed someone else Ronaldo would never have come back from that World Cup

Romulus

Re: Life after Matt

Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:58 am

I agree its very likely that Ronnie would have fornicate off to the muppets in Madrid. I am not so sure about Jose though. Yes he could handle the job, would probably do it while winning us a shitload of trophies, but I don't see him as a long term replacement and not one for stability. We don't have people meddling in football affairs here but in a few years he would be gone without giving us a second thought. If we were looking for a transitional manager then yes, Jose would be perfect, although I do not like his win at any cost attitude.

Damit, now I'm thinking what would happen when SAF leaves, not liking it one bit. (N)

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Re: Life after Matt

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:22 pm

My major fear after Sir Alex calls it a day is that given that the clubs current financial situation is hinged to a certain extent on success that the new fella,whoever that may be is not going to be shown any patience by the board.Even the modern day fans we have will be baying for blood should we not win a trophy for a season or two.Id hate to see the managers chair at OT become a farcical merry go round,everything Sir Alex has built up over the years would be gone.It really doesnt bear thinking about untill that day actually dawns.I for one am going to cherrish every moment we have left with Fergie in charge,we have been truely blessed.

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Re: Life after Matt

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:44 pm

mikey mikey wrote:My major fear after Sir Alex calls it a day is that given that the clubs current financial situation is hinged to a certain extent on success that the new fella,whoever that may be is not going to be shown any patience by the board.Even the modern day fans we have will be baying for blood should we not win a trophy for a season or two.Id hate to see the managers chair at OT become a farcical merry go round,everything Sir Alex has built up over the years would be gone.It really doesnt bear thinking about untill that day actually dawns.I for one am going to cherrish every moment we have left with Fergie in charge,we have been truely blessed.
That's the only way we can look at it, I hope he appoints his successor though

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